Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 10151

Straight Pride

http://foxnews.com/fn99/national/04...aight_pride.sml

The article brings up a couple things in my mind ... once again we're dealing with the hypocrisy of the leftist-PC movement (see the recent thread on Slave Reparations).

But this part brought up something that's occurred locally:

"The school attempts to foster an atmosphere of tolerance by displaying inverted pink triangles around designated "safe" areas of the school. The "safe" areas are set aside for student/teacher discussion and counseling regarding homosexuality and other non-traditional relationships."

Brings up a much more complicated issue ... I recently found out there is a gay-straight alliance club at the high school here. My question: what does sexuality have to do with the objectives of the education system? I know, you can make a lot of simple arguments about other so-called clubs at high schools everywhere. And everyone has to do the mandatory sex ed semester in Health class. Look deeper ... is it okay with you that the schools are assuming some place in accomodating further discussion of teen sexuality? I don't really want to get into the whole abstinence thing here, though it might make a good follow-up thread.

Are the schools taking something out of the parent's hands, assuming a role that isn't theirs? Or is this only an issue because we have a demographic here that is defined by who they choose to lick (should schools be teaching sex ed at all)?

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Registered: Sep 2000
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Holy shit! An intelligent conversation!

-runs-

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Registered: Jul 2000
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I think putting up triangles and having gay students talk to administration there is not really going to be very helpful. If the school wanted to offer some couseling like that why couldn't they just have those students who feel that they are having some problems make an appointment in the counselors office and sit down with them and discuss their concerns like everybody else. Unless they are being threatened or harassed I don't see what difference it makes anyway. I remember a thread from a while back where PityKity said that she was creating one of these groups at her school. I didn't understand the point of it, some people are gay, so what? I just wish schools would concentrate a little more on teaching basics and giving kids the tools to explore sujects that intrest them.

DM

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Registered: Jul 2000
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i almost laughed myself to death reading that article. how much more discriminating can they get? how can the school advertise the known symbol for gay pride and openly embrace that type of sexuality, without embracing ALL types of sexuality? it's reverse discrimination and it's fucking stupid. if i were him, i'd go up to the principle and say his inverted triangles offended ME.

note: i am not in any way, shape or form homophobic, nor do i endorse any idea that proposes said attitude. just in case anyone wanted to misinterpret my post. fucking queers.

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Registered: Sep 2000
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I think that schools should work to teach and foster tolerance and diversiity. High school is such an important place for defining one's self, and in a homophobic society, many gay teens are not able to be who they want to be for fear of reprisals. I don't see anything wrong with gay-straight alliances and other types of programs aimed at developing awareness of diversity. I'm not sure "inverted pink triangles" (at least they weren't inverterted pentagrams) is the way to do it, but I don't think that schools should avoid dealing with these issues.

The direct case of the StraightPride shirt is slippery. I agree that the PC-left has gone over the edge and has begun to operate just like those the original PC movement was intended to guard against. But the purpose of Gay Pride is to validate the identities of gay people, something that needs (needed?) to be done in the face of a repressive society. Straightness doesn't need any support.

Consider what would happen if a kid wore a White Pride shirt to school. Think s/he could use the same argument as in the Straight Pride case? While it is entirely possible that the motives would be the same, it is unlikely that a WhitePride shirt would not be interpreted as racist.

As much as people may disagree with me, I think that school uniforms are a good idea, partly for reasons like this.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Nutrimentia:
I think that schools should work to teach and foster tolerance and diversiity. High school is such an important place for defining one's self, and in a homophobic society, many gay teens are not able to be who they want to be for fear of reprisals. I don't see anything wrong with gay-straight alliances and other types of programs aimed at developing awareness of diversity. I'm not sure "inverted pink triangles" (at least they weren't inverterted pentagrams) is the way to do it, but I don't think that schools should avoid dealing with these issues.



there's a difference between offering private counseling on ALL sexual orientation difficulties, and offering, no, ADVERTISING couseling for a specific sexual orientation that just so happens to be against most of america's religion.



The direct case of the StraightPride shirt is slippery. I agree that the PC-left has gone over the edge and has begun to operate just like those the original PC movement was intended to guard against. But the purpose of Gay Pride is to validate the identities of gay people, something that needs (needed?) to be done in the face of a repressive society. Straightness doesn't need any support.


bull. teenagers for the most part have no idea "what" they are, or who they want to be. the school, by promoting gay awareness, may "make" some teens gay. imagine: johnny's four bestest friends in the whole world turn out to be gay. now all they want to do is hang out with gay men and women at those support groups. johnny is lonely and wants to fit in. what do you think johnny is going to do?

i'm not saying that will happen in all cases, but the school should not support ANY measure that crosses the line of sexuality. if they're not allowed to pass out condoms in study hall, they shouldn't be publicly supporting only ONE type of sexuality.


Consider what would happen if a kid wore a White Pride shirt to school. Think s/he could use the same argument as in the Straight Pride case? While it is entirely possible that the motives would be the same, it is unlikely that a WhitePride shirt would not be interpreted as racist.


if the school was offering counseling and group stuff to blacks or other minorities ONLY, as in this case, i would feel the same way.


As much as people may disagree with me, I think that school uniforms are a good idea, partly for reasons like this.


don't...get me...started...

[/B]

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location: zanzibar
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On a related but completely different subject, they had a Phys Ed teacher from Naperville, IL as a guest on the radio this evening discussing the use of non-competitive sports in the modern Phys Ed curriculum so that every child may feel like a winner and so that kids are not judged on the basis of physical skill.

I think part of this country's success has been that Americans have always been (for good or bad) hypercompetitive. We hate to lose. I think that ever since Vietnam there has been a segment of society that would like to teach kids that by winning you oppress someone else. Forget about making yourself better or working as hard as you can to improve.

The host talked about a teacher that was mentioned in some article that allows her students to play volleyball, but if they are not able to clear the net serving from the back line then they are moved up until they can. He was concerned about this and said it was equivalent to 'dumbing-down' academics. He pointed out that you are not teaching these children to deal with the reality that you will not always win and that this mothering will not help them later in life.

DM

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[This message has been edited by DevilMoon (edited 04-03-2001).]

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That is the most stupidest thing I have ever heard!

Skools really need to lighten up on student self expression! If that's how he feels then OK! what is wrong with that? If people are going to be Out and Gay in HS, then they should be allowed to show their Straight Christian pride as well.

SHEEIT!

what does sexuality have to do with the objectives of the education system?

Depends on what you think Highschool is for. Is it to teach basic facts & figures, or is it to teach kids to be knowlegeable adults in the way society functions?

I'd say this is more a matter of self expression than a matter of sexuality. What the kid was busted for was his point of view, not the fact that he was straight. If a kid can wear Pride jewlery or clothing in HS then the kid should be alowed to wear that teeshirt. In the real world you have to accept that your neighbor may have a differing viewpoint on the world that you don't agree with. Why should that be any different in HS?

It may not be a popular viewpoint, but it is his viewpoint and it should be respected.

Either that, or have everyone go back to wearing uniforms.

I dunno if that answered your question G...

but thar ya ar!

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but you tell me it's temporary, it's a matter of time
by god
don't you think i know it's in my mind
and it's right over left, and healing the then
I'll soon be to nothing but i don't know when

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Registered: Aug 2000
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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That's bullshit. It's a double standard. If the school supports the right of gays to express pride in their sexuality, then straights should be allowed no less. If they don't want the "straight pride" shirt, they should ban all shirts that refer in some way or another to gay pride, etc.

You see the same shit for religious and racial stuff as well. Some things are considered acceptable, but others aren't. Just plain bullshit.

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How many straight kids need counseling need counseling to help understand their sexuality? Besides, how do you know that this school doesn't counsel ALL types of sexual orientiations? They are simply working to create an environment where kids feel comfortable talking about "taboo" subjects. Gay counseling isnt just for gay people either you know. Its also a place for non-gays to get reliable information.

And who gives a fuck if most of the U.S. religions are anti-gay? That has nada to do with public education. That's explicit and you should know better than that. In fact, that's all the more reason for schools to work to promote awareness and understanding.

That little story about little Johnny "turning" gay is so fucking ridiculous I'm embarrased I've even give it this much attention.

Don't run from the school uniform issue. I think I vaguely remember it going around once before and I am really interested in why people think it is such a bad idea. If nothing else, could someone post a link to that thread?

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Could someone please explain why anyone would need counselling to understand their sexuality? What kind of understanding do they need? Sorry, honest question. I just don't get it.

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Upstate NY
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Yes Rosh, that's part of my question, and the extension of it is: why the schools? ... especially teenagers.

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Briefly:

1) My son attends a private school. The boys are required to wear ties during the day; at lunch, they also wear jackets. Although he doesn't rave on and on about it, I think he likes it. Among other things, I think it helps to even the playing field over something that a child has little to no control over, that being whether or not he/she has parents who can afford to clothe the child in plenty of the latest "labels".

2) I wholeheartedly agree with the comments against the non-competitive athletics. In fact, I'm going on record as saying that's a bunch of horseshit. Yes, I've already seen little pee-wee track meets where the races are won, but there's no winner, i.e., they all get a ribbon simply for participation.

In closing: In retrospect, I generally learned far more valuable and lasting lessons from the hard knocks I endured than just about anything else. That's not to suggest that school should be designed specifically to dish out hard knocks. To take such extremes to pretend they don't exist, however, stands to be very detrimental to a child's character building in the long run. Amen.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Roshigoth:
Could someone please explain why anyone would need counselling to understand their sexuality? What kind of understanding do they need? Sorry, honest question. I just don't get it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Nutrimentia:

That little story about little Johnny "turning" gay is so fucking ridiculous I'm embarrased I've even give it this much attention.

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Since most high schools are not--or even capable of--teaching, I'm assuming that a lot of the pc movement is used as a diversionary tactic. Same goes with "fostering a level playing field for all." Please, I wish you all could see my students who are supposed "education" majors. I've failed 80% of them for plagiarism, not doing their papers, or not attending class. With such people entering the hiring field at the elementary and high school level, people who could never determine what a "good" student or athlete is versus a "not so good" one, is it any wonder that they create diversity clubs? Have classes devoted to exploring one's "identity," or waste their time and resources talking about how exactly the guidance counseling paradigm should function?

That's my rebellious and cynical answer to why schools do this.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Nutrimentia:
Kids who are gay may be afraid or confused by it. They may not be able to approach their parents or friends (or pastor) for fear of reprisal, etc. I think society as a whole has made great strides in removing the barriers to self understanding and expression, but I can see where kids could still be confused.


and everything you've just said describes heterosexual anxiety as well. it's not that big of a deal, unless you start seperating it from "regular" sexuality by hosting special group sessions and counseling for it. then you make an issue out of it. before, there might have been some snide comments by some assholes about someone's rainbow necklace. now you've got some kid who was making a fucking joke suing the school board. i bet that whole school is divided right down the middle over this issue. now how right is that?



As for why it is in the schools, I would say that since kids spend as much time (or more) in school as they do with their parents, why not?


following that theory, schools should now start giving lessons in household chores. why not? how about the fact that this issue is heavily tied into some people's religious beliefs, i.e, it's AGAINST their parent's, and possibly their own, views. it is not the school's responsibility.


Many parents either don't realize tolerance should be taught, don't know how to approach the subject, or are intolerant themselves.


so, you're saying if someone is raised in a christian environment, and taught by their parents that homosexuality is bad, that it's the job of the schools to turn their views against their parents? what utter horseshit. you can ask emerald, i am not for christian beliefs at all, but i am still for the us constitution, which guarantees people the right to be free of religious persecution, which i think this fits nicely into.


I am not saying that I think that schools should take full responsibility for teaching and raising kids and parents' input isn't needed anymore, but I don't see how teaching wider social issues as secondary objectives can be a bad thing.


there is a huge difference between offering a sexuality anxiety counseling center available through the school, and posting huge pink triangles all over the school and proclaiming those areas "safe" zones for ONE particular group. so where's the safe area for girls who feel that they're sexually harassed by boys? where's the safe area for nerds and geeks who get bullied? there are far more pressing social issues (hello, GUNS) that should be addressed before the schools worry about which hole the boys are sticking their dicks in.


JEB, you summed up the uniform argument well. Kids are there to learn and having uniforms helps to level the field a little bit. You don't have problems like this and economics aren't as much an issue in who people are, at least in school. There are those that cry that uniforms take away inviduality, etc., but kids should be encouraged to express themselves in performance, not by materialistic display. You could also have a uniform system that gives a few options of uniform styles, any of which are acceptable.


i am not going to be dissuaded from the original argument. if you choose to take up this at a later date i would be happy to prove you wrong.


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It's like you can have a "Black Miss America" pageant, but not a "White Miss America" pageant.

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If schools didn't do something to break the cycle of ignorance that is being perpetuated by modern conservative values in the home, then who will? Most parents won't even tell their kids that people do choose to be gay. I guess they feel that if they tell their kid that there are other sexualities, and not just good ol' fashioned heterosexuality, that their child will grow up gay. I'm not saying that conservative values are bad, in fact, I myself hold a fair number of them. But I digress.

Of course, it isn't the school's responsibility to educate children on sex, but quite frankly, the parents aren't doing their job. By the time my parents got around to giving me the birds and the bees talk, I already knew enough about human sexuality to render the talk completely useless. It's sad when your parents go to give you "the talk" and you end up giving them "the talk." If you ask kids if they knew about sex before "the talk" I think you'll find a fair number of them knew long before their parents told them. Are the parents doing their jobs? I don't feel they are. So, who is to pick up the slack? The Church? The day care you dump your kids off at for eight hours at a time?

The whole pink triangle thing is just rediculous. You shouldn't need a special area to talk about homosexuality. That's like making a special section for using red crayons, or some equally absurd idea. The Pink Zone seems to be a way to single out people for gay bashing. "That boy's talkin' 'bout queers, so he must be a queer 'imself." Believe me, the ignorant masses that continue homophobia need little else to draw such a conclusion.

Morgana's proposed scenario of the Triangle Zone "making" people gay is very amusing. Believe me, Morg, people aren't gay just because of peer pressure or because they want to fit in. Last I knew, being gay wasn't the "in" thing. I think it's still over priced clothing and shallow personalitites. How offering counseling to, as most heterosexuals put it, "confused individuals" is crossing the line of sexuality doesn't add up to me. Schools by nature have always openly supported heterosxuality only. Example: prom king and queen. There has never been a prom king and king, or a queen and queen; it has always been king and queen. It may be "tradition" but it is also a public support of heterosexuality.

Onward to the shirt.

The kid does NOT have grounds for a law suit. If anyone that has ever been to school would kindly think back through all those years, especially if you ever worked for the school newspaper, you will notice one thing: the Bill of Rights effectively stopped applying to you the moment you walked in those doors. Sorry folks, but in a school you have no rights beyond those that are given to you.

If you wear something in the school, and people complain, the administration HAS to take action. It's in the fucking hand book, although I don't think the fuckwits that fill our school's halls read those.

Personally, I think any shirt bearing a "whatever Pride" slogan is really dumb. It was a statement before, but now it's just a fad. Maybe I should make up a t-shirt that says "Potential School Shooter Pride" and wear it to school. That'll make a statement.

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I had a shirt that said "Asshole Pride". School hated that one.

-m


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