Registered: Jul 2000
Location: zanzibar
Posts: 10477

Should security guards be allowed to physically restrain shoplifters from leaving the

I am stealing this from another forum.

Anyway, there have been three shoplifters that have died while resisting security guards in local stores recently.

In each case there has been no denial that the person was shoplifting. In two of the cases (one is recent, but I am sure its coming) a large lawsuit has been filed, including a $1 Billion suit. In each case there is no claim that the death was intentional. To borrow the words of the original poster, "each death falls somewhere between 'freak accident' and 'stupid/negligent' behavior on the part of the guards and/or thieves"

A local minister is calling for a moratorium against retailers apprehending or attempting to apprehend shoplifters.

What do you think about the question in the title of the thread and why?

(edit)

the title should read:

Should security guards be allowed to physically restrain shoplifters from leaving the store?

Sorry about that

DM

------------------
choosy mothers choose evil

[This message has been edited by DevilMoon (edited 04-12-2001).]

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Sydney
Posts: 2570

An ex student from my school was being a pain in the ass at a casino here.
He was, let's say "subdued".
He had a heart attack ( I blame the steroids, though that is wholly surmise), and died.
Long court case...security guards found responsible. Lots of money settlement.
As a sidenote, the victim's brother (also an ex student) is now in hiding in Europe after murdering someone here.
PS. DM...I'm a colour commentator.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Essex, England
Posts: 4523

Yes security guards should be able to restrain shoplifters!

------------------------
It's safe to say you're never alive. A big part of you has died
and by the way, I hope you're satisfied.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 1606

Restrain them to death when required. I'm fine with that.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Erehwon
Posts: 7546

Yes they should be able to physically restrain shoplifters. This is part of a 'Citizens Arrest' i believe.

Should they kill the shoplifter in the process then they should be punished, be it manslaughter, or 2nd Degree Murder or whatever. You can't just go around killing people.

------------------------
a /\/\ i n a l

"In complete darkness we are all the same,
It is only our minds that separate us."

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 10621

i saw something like this on 60 minutes or something. alot of security guards are cops that didnt make the cut and fantasize theyre cops taking down big time criminals or some shit rather than petty shoplifters.

anyways, yes they should be able to restrain shoplifers, but if the shoplifter dies they were obviously doing more than 'restraining'. You cant kill someone by restraining them.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 7236

yes, but restraining in my opinon means reasonable force, and not hitting them hard in the face with a night stick or mace etc.

------------------------
sp00ky
---------------------------
Disclaimer
------------------------------
I am not expecting to change anything by this post other than awareness. Please do not take anything I say as fact, I am only relaying opinon of limited sources, who themselves know nothing and thus should also be ignored as heresay and could never be admissable in a court of law.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: A New England
Posts: 9187

I don't think they should be able to, or if they are, there should be an easy means of recompense for defamation of character if the shoplifting can't be proven.

If I'm stopped leaving a store, on suspicion on theft by some jack booted, busy washout, I'll be fucked if I'm going to have a guy try to restrain me.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding things but shouldn't the libertarions be agreeing with me on this?

------------------------
A closed mouth gathers no feet.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1217

quote:

---

Originally posted by DevilMoon:
I am stealing this from another forum.

Anyway, there have been three shoplifters that have died while resisting security guards in local stores recently.

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
Posts: 2115

.

[This message has been edited by CAL (edited 04-12-2001).]

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: zanzibar
Posts: 10477

Here was my reply, I was pretty wishy-washy on it...

I said yes, although I was once accused of shoplifting by a store employee. A few of my friends and I were at the local 24 hour megastore and some lady followed us on the way out asking for "the batteries". We didn't even think she was talking to us at first. We asked for an explaination and she said that someone had witnessed us stealing batteries that we had better turn them over right away. I told her that I didn't even know where they sold batteries in the store and that we hadn't stolen anything. She told us that she would have to take us to the manager if we didn't cough up batteries. I told her that I'd be happy to talk to the manager about it. Then she decided to check our bags and receipts (we were even paying customers!) and let us go.

I did answer yes to the question, but I also wonder what the people here would do if someone tried to physically detain them when they hadn't done anything.

As far as I know, nobody but a police officer has a right to search your person (and that is only with probable cause) or detain you. They could make a note of your description or license plate.

I don't have any sympathy for shoplifters but I worry about trusting my rights to the judgement of a minimum wage rent-a-cop.

DM



------------------------
choosy mothers choose evil

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1217

quote:

---

Originally posted by DevilMoon:
As far as I know, nobody but a police officer has a right to search your person (and that is only with probable cause) or detain you. They could make a note of your description or license plate.

I don't have any sympathy for shoplifters but I worry about trusting my rights to the judgement of a minimum wage rent-a-cop.

DM

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Oakland-ish
Posts: 6041

Several years ago while waiting for a cab on the street I witnessed the following: A boy, probably about 12-15 years old leaving a supermarket and a much bigger man chasing out after him, grabbing him, putting him into a neck? head? lock and pushing him rather violently to the ground. A few words were exchanged, then the man hauled the boy up, twisted his arm behind his back and took him into the store. I was shocked, other people were staring as well. I walked into the store and I searched for them. No where in sight. Finally I went to the doors to the storage area and pushed it open and found the kid, red marks around his neck, bleeding scratches on his hands, sitting on a chair crying. I asked him what happened. He told me that they caught him stealing something. I said well, I saw what happened and you were assaulted, I am staying till your parents come. Suddenly the man who had grabbed him was in my face, demanding to know who I was. He was furious, enraged, it was scarey. I told him what I witnessed and that I was staying till the boy's parents came in case they wanted to file assault charges, as I was a witness. I asked him who he was, it turned out he was the asst. manager. I got his name. I asked to speak to the manager, but he was gone for the day (it was late). He begin swearing at me, calling me a nosey bitch, yelling about how this kid had taken a candy bar and goddamnit he was gonna pay the price, they were going to call the police...blah blah blah. I said even better, call the cops. I hoped that he would, actually.

I ended up waiting about an hour, most of the time comforting this absolutely terrified kid who was shaking like a leaf. I remember him holding my hand and anytime i tried to take it back he gripped tighter, so i tried to calm him and had a talk about how he had done something wrong, and how he would never do it again.

The asst manager did not call the police after I encouraged him to do so a few more times, instead he called the parents and the dad came. He was very upset with his son, and was very confused by what had happened, and the asst. manager was telling him to ignore what I had to say. The father took a look at his kid's neck, asked me what happened, and I told him. I gave him one of my cards and told him to call me if they needed me. I left them there to work it out.

I heard back from the father about a week later, he just thanked me for bothering to get involved and calming his kid. He said the boy was grounded for stealing, and that the kid was still distraught over the whole thing.

I took things a bit furthur and called the head office of the grocery store chain. I eventually learned, after a week or so of persuing it, that the assistant manager had temper problems with employees as well. This I found by visiting the store and speaking with some clerks. My purpose for calling head office was to alert them that I would no longer shop in their store as long as they allowed their supervisors to assault people. In fact, I never set a foot in there after that.

So you know where I stand on this. I believe that you have the right to protect your merchandise but not to the degree you can harm someone. Is it really worth it? Think if the kid in my story had been seriously injured, or killed. It's possible. Over what? A 60 cent candy bar? That would have been a real tragedy.

------------------------
"if you never take it seriously, you never get hurt and if you never get hurt you always have fun"

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Sedona, Arizona
Posts: 19663

Hell yes!!!! Having owned a couple of small businesses, I have been the victim of shoplifters innumerable times. Fuck em, I personally feel that those people that died fucking put themselves in the spot. I am not saying that they deserved to die but if they weren't committing a crime, they wouldn't be dead.
Anytime you commit a criminal act, you are putting yourself at risk of reaction by society, if you can't deal with that, don't do the crime.
I fucking hate shoplifters, I worked hard at my businesses and to have some worthless piece of shit come in and steal from me just for sport, made me want to kill.
I have been to court for assualt on two different occasions for "detaining" shoplifters and won both times. Fortunately, here in a small town, the judge was very understanding of my situation and realized that sometimes people "fall down alot" when they are being detained.


------------------------
Don't argue with me.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Sedona, Arizona
Posts: 19663

I didn't see your post, Inky, until after I posted.
Sorry, but steal from me and you get hurt, period. If someone wishes to avoid that sort of pain, don't steal.
I have no sympathy for that kid at all. Hopefully, he had the shit scared out of him so bad that he will never steal again.

I have been guilty of youthful excesses myself and have paid the price and learned my lessons including taking a load of rock salt in the back and getting the shit beat out of me (more than once). I deserved everything that I got and hold zero animosity to the people that did what they did to me.

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

------------------------
Don't argue with me.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: zanzibar
Posts: 10477

I have a friend that used to manage an Abercrombie store and she said that they were told that they were not to try to apprehend anyone, but rather get a full description and report it. But they did have a loss prevention guy and he loved to take kids in the back and make them cry. She said that kids don't have to stay and they had no real legal right to detain them, but the kids didn't know that and would sit there and get yelled at until they admitted it. She said that sometimes he'd let her go in and yell at them a bit, she loved it.

I also have a friend that is worried about his father. He is an old arabic guy that owns a dollar store in a bad neighborhood. He saw a guy stealing ladies underwear and chased him out of the store and was running down the street hitting the thief's car with a bat as he drove down the away. He thinks his dad is going to end up shot, but you can't let people take your stuff, and you really can't end up with a reputation as a place that's easy to steal from.

On one hand I think that a store owner definately has a right to protect his property and business. But having been falsely accused of stealing in the past, I worry about poorly trained guards with little knowledge of the law or people's rights.

DM

------------------------
choosy mothers choose evil

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Apr 2001
Location:
Posts: 118

one of my student employment jobs was security card, it was very boring

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Bangor, ME
Posts: 10322

basically if your not the cops, don't fucking touch me or else i'll sue your ass

only an officer of the law may do that

and if you think otherwise your just a vigilanty, and i will get you for defemation of character, and assault

------------------------
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools."
-Ernest Hemingway

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Sedona, Arizona
Posts: 19663

quote:

---

Originally posted by AlcoholSoopaFiend:
basically if your not the cops, don't fucking touch me or else i'll sue your ass

only an officer of the law may do that

and if you think otherwise your just a vigilanty, and i will get you for defemation of character, and assault

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Oakland-ish
Posts: 6041

quote:

---

Originally posted by wonderaz:
Sorry, but steal from me and you get hurt, period. If someone wishes to avoid that sort of pain, don't steal.
I have no sympathy for that kid at all. Hopefully, he had the shit scared out of him so bad that he will never steal again.

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Dumbfucksville!
Posts: 12164

Personally, I think it's a sad day for a country when it has sunk to a position where this question even needs to be asked. A country can crumble pretty quickly when it's citizens feel free to steal and suffer no consequence.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Bangor, ME
Posts: 10322

nice rebuttal

attacking defimation of character with just that...

priceless...

------------------------
"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools."
-Ernest Hemingway

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Dumbfucksville!
Posts: 12164

quote:

---

Originally posted by AlcoholSoopaFiend:
nice rebuttal

attacking defimation of character with just that...

priceless...

---