Registered: Jul 2000
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If Capitalism is the Problem, is Capitalism the Solution?

As far as he's concerned, the corporate shift toward natural capitalism is inevitable; government could do more to encourage the trend and activism shouldn't be discarded, but in the long run, going green is cheaper and companies will do it for their own good. The next Industrial Revolution, characterized by dramatic transformations in resource management, is already happening and will continue to spread, he says. Not even Bush can stop it.

"It feels somewhat like the early days of civil rights," Lovins says. "The changes are here, now, and on the way."

Taken from a really interesting (and so objective I almost fear linking it) article at Salon: http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2...vins/index.html

Basically the idea is Natural Capitalism being the next big Industrial Revolution.

When people ask me why I am a Libertarian, I say it is because I believe in people. I believe that it is not the corporations or even the government that control industry and business, but rather the consumers. The only obstactle is that many of them just don't realize it.

Imagine if nobody bought from Nike anymore because of their sweat shops. Nike could no longer profit from sweat shops, and thus would have to enact change to once again be profitable.

That's the basics of capitalism, and how it can work to basically any end, from social change to the environment.

People who support Socialism and even very Liberal ideals say they do so because they want to work for the people. I say by "for" they don't mean "on their own behalf", but rather "instead of them". They hold their ideals because they don't trust the people.

That's one side of the spectrum in my worldview as it pertains to the evils of corporate America, specifically how it relates to to the environment.

The other is contained in the article I linked.

It basically states that corporations are beginning to find out that not only are conservationist policies good for the environment (and great PR = more customers), but also, it is inherently becoming better for the bottom line.

Take California, which Nutrimentia has cited in the past as being a prime example of why we are going to hell. Because of that, many corporations are realizing that resources and energy are finite. And thus I hear story after story of corporations now drastically changing and conserving their energy. Using cleaner fuel saves money, decreasing energy use, conserving resources, researching new technologies, all of that is good business.

The bottom line is that conservation helps the bottom line.

Which is exactly the stance the dude in that article is expounding.

I realize there are many who would disagree with this sentiment. Call me an optimist or call me naive.

I believe in the ingenuity of mankind.

If it is good for the consumers and it is good for the businesses, it will happen.

Discuss.

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Bangor, ME
Posts: 10153

i agree, however there is a problem with people not trusting other peoples judgement

you have to admit, alot of people agree with the sheep mentality, "i am smarter then everyone else" BS that is very prevailent in probably every household

trust me, there isn't much difference between republican and democrate here in the US
in fact if you look at history, it sort of switches around every 60 years or so

go libertarian

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"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools."
-Ernest Hemingway

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Registered: Jul 2000
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quote:

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Originally posted by AlcoholSoopaFiend:
i agree, however there is a problem with people not trusting other peoples judgement

you have to admit, alot of people agree with the sheep mentality, "i am smarter then everyone else" BS that is very prevailent in probably every household

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Bangor, ME
Posts: 10153

put the bong down

no one else trusts others judgements, sure we believe in the people but others tend to believe that everyone else is an idiot. and this tends to spill into the voting booth

sorry, fighting a hangover

*drinks water*

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"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools."
-Ernest Hemingway

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Ivory Tower, USA
Posts: 1485

Interesting post. These ideas I've seen tossed around in the alternative press (read progressive/liberal) for quite a few years. Now that I'm living in a reasonably small Midwestern city (after years spent on both coasts), I have problems finding "alternative" businesses to support. This is a town *dominated* by massive chain stores and supermarkets that don't give a damn about environmentalism.

The choices of where to spend my money here--unlike Boston, Seattle, SFO, even Maine--are ridiculously limiting.

An example.... I'm one of those semi-health conscious kooks who's convinced that anything that's "partially hydrogenated" is going to kill you. Likewise, free range chickens that aren't pumped full of chemicals matter a great deal to me, as do organic fruits and vegetables.

The supermarkets in this town? Forget it. There is no choice. However, I can drive 90 miles away to an Iowa City health food store. But as a gas-conscious citizen, I'm wary of that waste, too. How do I accept such a trek? Nevermind the time....

Such dilemmas....

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"Wisdom comes with winters."--Oscar Wilde

[This message has been edited by Agoust (edited 04-30-2001).]

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Registered: Jul 2000
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I think on that point Agoust I would say that it certainly won't be overnight. But think of it this way, if conservationist companies begin consistently making more money then "dirty" ones.....

Well, you can figure out where I'm going with that.

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Ivory Tower, USA
Posts: 1485

Exactly Paint. I'm not holding my breath.

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"Wisdom comes with winters."--Oscar Wilde

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Registered: Nov 2000
Location: Gehenna
Posts: 1018

I'm with you, Paint. I'm a Libertarian for generally the same reason you are.

A person, individually, is capable of feats of intellect and honor unimaginable by a group. In essence, the individual is the genius, the group is a mindless organism which follows the wind.

Individuals and small groups of people are potentially objective: you have a chance with them to sit down and say "This is how I think it is, and this is why", but with Governments and Corporations, there's not even the pretense of objectivity. they're made up of warring factions and they're universally WRONG. Yes, WRONG.

You cannot trust any one organization of any type that relies on a Government for it's existence. Why? Because that organization will say or do whatever it must to continue to exist. Objectivity simply cannot exist in that environment. Thus, as an individual, you must always consider anything proposed or supported by a large group or government to be counter to your interest until it is proven otherwise. Assume they're wrong and you will be right more often than not.

A person is smart, people are stupid. Live your life by your own judgement and tell the restof them to go fuck trhemselves unless they can offer objective proof of something that is concrete, not bullshit manufactured for government money in this Socialist state we call the United States.

THINK.

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Remember that we, as aggressors, have the intiative. Ruthlessly, rapidly, viciously...attack, attack, and when in doubt, attack again.

[This message has been edited by RogueWarrior (edited 04-30-2001).]

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Registered: Jul 2000
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quote:

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Originally posted by Agoust:
Exactly Paint. I'm not holding my breath.

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Ummm, as you are agreeing with me, I assume you took my point the wrong way.

Let me complete my own sentence:

"But think of it this way, if conservationist companies begin consistently making more money then "dirty" ones, it then becomes more profitable to be conservationist, and thus businesses will quickly adopt that stance and your potential for choice will be increased."

To me it's the best long term solution, the only one we can reasonably expect to be adopted and work.

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Ivory Tower, USA
Posts: 1485

Nope, we're both on the same page. In more rural, insulated areas, change will come very slowly, particularly since there are very few choices for basic commodities.

No choice = stranglehold = no change


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"Wisdom comes with winters."--Oscar Wilde

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Registered: Jul 2000
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Well, to be sure, but also the VAST majority of pollution comes from the big cities, right?

Seems to me to be a good place to start.

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Ivory Tower, USA
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The cities are, of course, the ideal place to start, bud.

Those of us in the "fly-over" will just have to wait for the trickle-down effect. But given the demographics and population size, my guess is that most major corporations won't feel much of a squeeze if they're shunned by rural America.



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"Wisdom comes with winters."--Oscar Wilde

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Registered: Jul 2000
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quote:

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Originally posted by Paint CHiPs:
in the long run, going green is cheaper and companies will do it for their own good.

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